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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:13 pm
Predictions on December case changes?
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:30 am
Wouldn't be surprised if some clarifications are made to either the indictment or the law regarding involuntary manslaughter (i.e. does the P have to establish abandonment?)
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:36 pm
ButItActuallyUpdates wrote:Wouldn't be surprised if some clarifications are made to either the indictment or the law regarding involuntary manslaughter (i.e. does the P have to establish abandonment?)

I certainly agree with this. Seems like an obvious place for some case law to clarify this all for competitors. Along with this, I'd suspect some sweeping changes to Corbin Dallas are coming. Not sure about other regions but we have only seen one CD call all year.
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:11 pm
Someone from my team reached out to AMTA to ask if the state had to claim Jordan abandoned Parker on the loop and they said that they did. It's not clear right now and if AMTA does want the prosecution to be limited to arguing that then they need to further clarify that. Also, we've seen a few Dallas calls, some teams have done a really good job on it. I'm expecting big changes to Remy/Washington, we haven't seen a ton of those.
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:47 pm
I've definitely seen a fair amount of Dallas calls - s/he isn't a very substantive witness, but certainly rewards a strong and believable character portrayal points-wise. Doos and Chesney will probably have a few more bad facts to disincentivize teams from constantly calling them on the Prosecution.

Given how the P/D win rates seem fairly balanced thus far, I highly doubt anything like this would happen - however, moving a current swing witness to a defense-constrained witness would be fantastic, especially for dealing with the uncertainty that comes with manslaughter. Being able to call Lopez on manslaughter or only having to rely on one swing witness would probably make running a manslaughter defense much more palatable.
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:37 pm
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In the latest episode of the Mock Review, Neal Schuett, the Criminal Case Committee chair in charge of writing this year's case mentioned that right now about 2/3rds of Prosecution teams are pursuing Murder, while only a third are doing Manslaughter.

I wonder if they'll do anything to try to get that margin closer to 50/50. I personally think Manslaughter is already pretty strong as is. I could see them adding some case law to make it clear that Parker leaving Jordan at night isn't Manslaughter because it doesn't follow the indictment, in exchange, they'll probably add more clear evidence of abandonment on the trail itself.

I also think they'll add more bad stuff to the Ryder interrogation, because even though the case is pretty balanced right now, Defense tends to get stronger throughout the year, so prempting that shift in Defense bias makes sense.

I'd personally like to see them add Ryder's financial records as an exhibit. For Murder, the life insurance money motive is kind of toothless without evidence that Ryder was actually in a desperate enough financial situation where they would need that money.

Finally this is just a personal request, but I assume the case committee wants Kai Washington's anger assessment to come in most of the time (considering the pretrial motion on it), so some case law clarifying that the IAX-ST isn't character evidence would be appreciated. I saw alot of judges get confused on the differences between anger as a character trait, and anger as a psychological disorder. I believe there was case law like that in Park v. Duran which established that psychological assessments do not constitute character evidence, so having something like that to cite to judges would definitely be appreciated.
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:00 pm
If they limit manslaughter to abandonment, then I think (based on anecdotal evidence) that a lot of the complaints regarding P's ability to choose the charge will be remedied. Building a manslaughter defense is extremely difficult when P can argue that just taking Parker to Calkins/Leckrone constituted an act creating the substantial risk, or that Jordan not finding Parker counts as a lack of action that created a substantial risk. There's an absurd level of moving pieces to consider, and it can easily result in teams resorting to really wild defense theories as a catch-all to whatever a P manslaughter team might argue. Even though the case balance clearly suggests otherwise, it does generally seem like the vagueness of the burden for manslaughter makes the charge really cumbersome for defense teams.
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:23 pm
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I don't know if y'all just don't read the indictments but yes, abandonment is an essential part of the manslaughter charge. I understand that not everyone knows how grand juries and indictments work, but a grand jury decided beforehand that this trial will be about whether or not the defendant did exactly what's alleged in the indictment. Prosecutors do move the goalpost around in real life, but it's a dirty move.
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:07 pm
Anyone want to predict when the case changes will be out?
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:10 pm
I’m gonna have to guess Tuesday
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:56 pm
In terms of ideal case changes, I would love to see a viable Washington/Dallas. We have also been kicking around the idea about changing Ex 29 a little so it's not just a literal summary of Quincy's report that comes in no matter what on IM *or* have the ability to call Lopez regardless of a Quincy call. On that note, it would also be great to see an organized Lopez whose conclusions aren't just completely out of the blue (although keep a few of the wild ones in there for fun objection battles/crosses).

The best case change would be to Ryder's interrogation, in my opinion.
Det. Chesney: Jordan, do you know of anyone who would want to hurt your daughter?
Jordan: No, I don't think anyone would hurt Parker.

^I think the above would be phenomenal in balancing out def/pros splits....
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:32 pm
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hearsay.w.in.hearsay wrote:
The best case change would be to Ryder's interrogation, in my opinion.
Det. Chesney: Jordan, do you know of anyone who would want to hurt your daughter?
Jordan: No, I don't think anyone would hurt Parker.

Hard disagree here. One of the great things about this case is how many different defense theories are possible. This would kill any alternate suspect theory, leaving you only with claiming Parker died on her own for Murder, and claiming Jordan didn't know their actions put Parker in danger for Manslaughter. I understand killing suicide theories, as they weren't necessary for this case and could make people uncomfortable with the case material, but removing alternate suspects would take alot of the wind out of the sails of this case in my opinion. Balance is already pretty close to 50/50 right now, and you can weaken the defense in many other ways if needed.
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:37 pm
Hard disagree here. One of the great things about this case is how many different defense theories are possible. This would kill any alternate suspect theory, leaving you only with claiming Parker died on her own for Murder, and claiming Jordan didn't know their actions put Parker in danger for Manslaughter. I understand killing suicide theories, as they weren't necessary for this case and could make people uncomfortable with the case material, but removing alternate suspects would take alot of the wind out of the sails of this case in my opinion. Balance is already pretty close to 50/50 right now, and you can weaken the defense in many other ways if needed.

I don't think it is impossible to run an alternate suspect theory outside of Ryder. I've seen alternate suspect theories that have been done very well without Ryder ever saying that that person was the one who killed their daughter. I think that AMTA is always going to try to get teams to consider not calling the defendant, and they always are looking for ways to adjust for what most people are pursuing each semester. Two years ago, it was getting rid of Mickey as a viable suspect for ORCs, but I think Ryder not outright saying "this person killed my kid and I have decided to not tell the police for some reason," is still workable with a defense theory.
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:37 pm
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The one change I really want to see is more side-constrained defense witnesses, mainly because right now, not calling the defendant isn't really an option. I personally would be ok with the constrained witness not being a particularly strong defense pick, I would just like to have the option since right now, you're forced to call what is an easy cross score for the attorney for the other team. This goes doubly so in murder, where you have to call Lopez as well. I know no Ryder in murder is more doable, but since murder/manslaughter theories are more or less similar, I feel like not calling Ryder just gives yourself that much more work to do, especially since you can get forced into Ryder on manslaughter anyway. I think the best case changes are ones where both sides are given slightly more evidence to use. The State could certainly use more bad Ryder facts, since defense will probably get stronger by regionals. But I think even the defense should be given one or two more small but important facts to help their side since limiting theories only makes the case less interesting.
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:18 pm
They're updating the case right now (I think). Me and people from other schools can't log in to view current case materials but we can view previous ones!
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State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions Empty Re: State v. Ryder December Case Changes Predictions

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